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2018/05/28 16:18, Cohen:   
The issue with this idea and the plenty of others - what is really 'us to be heard'. When you read the whole thread you will find at least 3 positions - 1) yes we needed track 12+, 2) no please no track over 12 ticks, 3) it doesn't matter - it will be neutral and not bring any new players.
Will you decide to spent resources - proly yes in case you think it will brings new players otherwise not. Should you allow some players (or in corner case one player) who will spent money for game development to takeover ownership of game - probably not. The problem is not so simple - we do not have coders, the issue is what to do to get stream of new players and keep them active for a few years.

2018/05/29 16:29, Enforcer: 
Imho 12 tick tracks is plenty, if they dont decay every time i change zone and there is a light wind :)

2018/05/29 16:44, Bardock:   
everyone just keeps saying 12 ticks is fine but wont give any reason why. Cool! Glad no one has one legitimate reason why 12 ticks tracks make any sense on a dying game that is constantly expanding and losing players rapidly.

gg mume.

2019/04/01 14:34, Nero: 
Having longer tracks helps literally nothing. Honestly, I donít usually even check 10-12 old tracks because who ever it was is probably rented by now. The *much* bigger problem is finding 1-3 tick old tracks in an area with actual potential for PK but you follow 2 rooms and there are no tracks because it got cloudy.

If you want to help PK in this game then forget 720 tick track, a few more picable doors and so on and just scale back the bloody safe zones. True safe zones used to be NOIDEA. How many do we have now? No possible way into RD as a darkie. No possible way into Lorien. Only BNs can get into Fangorn but we canít use most of our spells. Totally safe in CA by just jumping in the river. . My favorite hunting ground years ago was dunland but now someone put a city there without even any gates and it even has a tracking patrol! Basically the only options left are duelers (yuck!) and trapping. Except Iím the only one in the game without rocks. Can we at least make rocks semi-artefact?

2019/04/01 16:05, Sarkazein:   
I totally agree with rocks being semi artifacts. Also, I missed out on about 6 solokills in the past two days because even with arachnia and no mounts, pukes can get to one of the millions of uber safe zones. Ok, leave RD as a safe spot because there's a slight delay on entering. But maybe remove one of the 15 rooms to seek in? Nerf Haldin. That's fricken ridiculous. It's way too SAFE. Back in the day, when there were a ton of newbies, it was nice having safe spots, but nowadays it's nearly impossible to kill something that doesn't want to fight, unless you trap or get lucky on timing..

2019/04/02 07:24, Cohen:  edited 2x   
Unfortunately there is no win-win setting. Poison/chance to escape - it was there and it is like with sleep it is either wizkill setting or you have to have real chance to get away. And on top of that in case you will not have chance to get away from single enemy, how do you want to escape in case you unluckily meet group of enemies?
So as long as you want to avoid wizkill scenario group vs single target, single lucky land (like poison etc) it has to be pretty hard/lucky timing to solo kill an enemy who do not want to fight and put all his fresh strength to escape.
Last time i ripped due arachnia i didn't managed to get from DT to RD and ended moveless in the middle, so there is just free ticket over Mandos to safe zone with fresh poison in your veins, otherwise you should play pretty well to save self.

2019/04/02 11:39, ZŪntilden:   
I find the darkie side uses poison in a wasteful way, Sarkazein. If you are talking about when you are on a thief, you should be starting with venom+stab anyhow imo, and toggling your arachnia for later instead of exposing it right away. It would be simliar to me using psylonia against a caster with full mana at the start of the fight, instead waiting until he has spent a lot of that mana.

Also, when darkies see people quaffing bottles, and keep re-poisoning their weapons, it is just as wasteful and only that. I've seen that on many of my characters for the past month or so. I wondered if people forgot how long antidote lasts once quaffed. To see 2-3 orcs re-poisoning after I just quaffed bottle in their room at the start of a fight after I get poisoned is a bit comical.

2019/04/02 15:32, Elestir:   
You cannot compare envenom with sleep. Envenom has many counters, the most effective one being antidote, which you can mix ahead and which lasts hours in backpack. The only countermeasure against sleep spell is not to be alone (and have quickly reacting companions), so solo pker is just out of luck here.

Sleep spell in it's current implementation is simply complete game ruiner for any1 who wants to pk solo. The instant nature of the sleep has to be changed so that soloers have chance to react. There are many ways to fix it, but also many ways to keep it broken, even if some changes are made. I just hope that when management finally realizes they need to address this, they won't come with some half solution. Until then, we will be living in the sleep-spell pk environment, and whoever accepts 1 vs 1 is just asking to get it.

2019/04/02 16:20, Cohen:   
No point to argue about sleep, it is ... with current setup. The point is you cannot reach point where poison is pretty deadly and chars will usually not escape when they are poisoned (complain of Sarkazein) and not call it a wizkill. I think these chars should use something against arachnia otherwise they will not run away without horse and fresh poison.
Anyway as i'm pretty lazy to spend time on all these countermeasures like having stats for mixing and hers, precollecting bottles, oie ring - an offer to fight solo with someone who is venoming is same offer like fighting morgul blade, enter single room for bn with key and lithe inside - wasting of time.

2019/04/02 16:34, Uge:   
I donít mind fighting people with poison, it can make them overconfident if you play it right. Back to the topic of this thread. A longer track would be useful for places like Moria or Mirkwood. If they added a track thoroughly option that gave twice the delay and 18 ticks tracks it could be useful in some instances. I donít think it would harm playability. Might make camp trapping harder, but it could also make landing a stab easier. But Iím guessing most people will not like that last part.

2019/04/02 21:33, Elestir:   
@Cohen Poison efficiency is ok as it is. Problem is excessive mobility of most characters (mounts, zorcs and trolls wearing light eq, etc.) and safe 'spots' like Anduin river. Antidote is so effective (and easily accessible) counter it should probably be nerfed (the immunity it provides should last shorter IMO). If you are lazy to mix one, you can only blame yourself for dying moveless to arachnia. But if you die to sleep overkill, you can rightfully blame the management for not making the game reasonably playable for soloers. Morgul blade is harder to counter, as you basically have to leave the fighting ground instantly and run to get cured. There should be some counters to that too, maybe antidote could buy ppl with evil wound some more time at least.

2019/04/03 06:05, Gilhdur:   
'Sleep' as spell is great to have in MUME. it allows you to use different tactics while exping/smobbing/pking. As a 'solo' pker it helps you to get upperhand sleeping someones charmies in battle. Sleeptrapping is all different and has nothing to do with spell itself. Its all up to player what happens after you sleep someone. We all seek for kills and exp and fame and thats why many uses it that blame way. In my eyes sleep are not problem for soloers. During recent battles i have played i dont remember any sleeptraps to my chars. So sleep need no changes.
But as i have been killed many times using poison and spammed down by 3+ warriors who can poison their HUGE weapons i see problem. imo poison should be used only by thieves and on piercing weapons or arrows. Or make it that if you want to poison greater weapon you need lik 5 bottles once.

2019/04/03 11:30, ZŪntilden:   
Gilhdur: To poison on a smiter you do use more poison then you would versus poisoning other weapons. It is often gone in 6 uses. For those that 'spill' a lot, they will maybe get 2-3 uses out of it, for an example. It just isn't a problem to get the poison ingredients if you constantly are collecting as you go (so the vials are basically always fresh and a never ending supply, just like the antidote). 23 pracs to invest on Zaug side, chance for spilling/wasting if you don't have the pracs/stats for envenom, and to having to collect to have both poison and bottle on hand is also extra weight. I think there is nothing wrong with poison, there are so many things pukes can do to counter it anyhow. I notice recently myself you don't need to invest many pracs to make anything work on a puke and you all have access to rem poison. If people don't like the weight of carrying bottles/ingredients, or the hassle for mixing antidote, too bad imo, it is at least an option for you all.

Sleep on the other hand has never effected me one way or another, so I don't care tbh. However you often hear from the books or saw in the movies that orcs were running around poisoning. I never remembered reading any of JRRT's writing where orcs were 'sleeping' elves or men though. :) We are simply doing what we were meant and born to do with the poison though. :P

2019/04/03 11:55, Gilhdur:   
Yeah we talk mostly about own experience. Sleep spell for a solo player is much more helpful than a poison. You can argue over couple situations where someone were slept and wizkilled but its so rare in gameplay. With poison its different in my eyes. I agree that its more realistic/tolkenish but when i try to imagine orc pouring small vial on a twohanded sword then its just doesnt work for me :D
maybe we should make works some others spells what are really broken atm like 'hold' ) so we can cry more over OP spells :D
Meanwhile enjoy game and dont overthink or try to make MUME environment 200% safe.
And my point was from a view of a real solo player not words from Elestir who in my eyes doesnt know what is a solo pk. and that is my opinion so dont argue with that!

2019/04/03 12:08, Zintilden:   
I asked that same question months ago and recently again: Why not fix the broken spells and skills to give players more options. Not happening. :(

2019/04/03 12:11, Gilhdur:   
But back to topic! more players=more tracks!

2019/04/03 14:55, Nero: 
Morgul blade is countered by practically never being in the game. :)

Gilhdur: Saying 'this doesn't bother me, so no changes needed' isn't the best argument. :) And 3 smiting orcs running around *should* be dangerous to a solo player. It's not insurmountable (especially since a whitie player is literally never more than about 20 rooms from safety anywhere on Arda) but you will have to be careful. If not even 3 power orcs with poison posed any danger at all, what are we playing?

As for the topic of the thread: having tracks decay in 30 ticks will help literally nothing. Removing some safe spots or at least making them less useful might give incentive to darkie-only players to come back since hunting might be possible again.

2019/04/03 15:04, Gilhdur:   
So Nero based on what you find that sleep needs a nerf? Maybe change bash instead so you cant bash target who is on floor ( sleeping) already?
You gather many options from different views and decide either there is point or not.. Or is Elestir so powerful that when he feels sleep is killing solo pk ingame, you just remove it? I just wanted to point out that from a view of solo pk-er sleep isnt so dangerous than huge groups using so other fieture on strange way. # warrios are dangerous enoug and with that stupid way to use poison they are more OP. Yes you can drink antidote 24/7 and gather all ingreds all the time but walking pharmacy isnt the view of Tolkien world also.

2019/04/03 15:17, Nero:edited 1x   
I'm not yet convinced sleep needs a nerf, per se. I don't have it on any of my chars (I don't prioritize it in stats or pracs) and it's certainly annoying trying to fight people who do nothing but spam sleep but it used to be way worse than it is now.

In my experience, if you do get slept you're going to take some serious damage but you normally need to roll really unlucky to actually die to it. Unless they weakened wimpy flee or something.

The only real danger of it are scumbags who try to sleep trolls in sunrooms and leave them to sundie. There should be something done to prevent that. In fact, the legit uses of sleep I hear are for mobs so how about making sleep only last 1 tick on players or something? The reason we were able to kill Ardevui was because we waited for armour to age (we were hoping it would drop).

2019/04/03 16:27, Razoor: 
I more or less agree with Nero and Gilhdur. I think sleep is fine, I've never once been slept or wizkilled and I can only recall one or two occasions where this happened to people I know. Bash-traps are far more common.

CHARM(!!) on the other hand is definitely OP and in need of a little fix. Following level-changes, an already amazing spell became ridiculously powerful. I'm torn because I really like that one player can take on multiple opponents and it's great for XP, but it just turns into a complete overkill if it's 1v1 or even 1v2 and the charmer is a puke. And these days you can even solo BBT with it - it's a bit much.

I would like to see some sort of re-balance where pukes have charm nerfed slightly in PK, while it stays the same for darkie. It's the puke-utility together with charm that becomes ridiculous I think, not charm per se. But I'm not sure how to do it.

2019/04/03 21:10, Elestir:   
Gilhdur said: It allows you to use different tactics while exping/smobbing/pking. As a 'solo' pker it helps you to get upperhand sleeping someones charmies in battle.
Yes, and nobody wants to change that. I fail to see why you ever argue with it.

Gilhdur said: In my eyes sleep are not problem for soloers.
We will talk after you get wizkilled few times. Just because you haven't yet, doesn't mean it's not broken.

Gilhdur said: But as i have been killed many times using poison and spammed down by 3+ warriors who can poison their HUGE weapons i see problem.
Just because you died to something, doesn't mean it requires change. Nero summed it pretty well. If you are meant to be 100% safe from 3 smiting orcs with poison, why should they ever bother pking? And besides, if you invested 10 minutes into mixing antidote, you would be perfectly safe. These poisoning zorcs also need to mix antidotes, so why shouldn't you, lazy ass?

Gilhdur said: ... Elestir who in my eyes doesnt know what is a solo pk.
Solo PK is when you fight bravely, kill worse players than yourself, often using charmies/mobs, and the eat a sleep, wait 5 minutes and get wizkilled. That's what solo pk is in MUME. Just check the recent Arvedui's log. It's all there.
Sure, there is chance you will survive it, but it's all about luck, not at all about your skills. And that just ain't fun, not for me anyway.

Gilhdur said: Maybe change bash instead so you cant bash target who is on floor (sleeping) already?
That would help a bit, but not entirely, because you can still sleep someone behind (at that time) bashed door, then wait for blur, block, and wizkill. So I would prefer more elegant solution which would address all sorts of sleep wizkill scenarios.

Nero said: The reason we were able to kill Ardevui was because we waited for armour to age (we were hoping it would drop).
No. In that case, you waiting for armour to age was completely irrelevant. Old armour is equally effective as fresh armour. It would have only mattered if it actually dropped, which it didn't. Hence you killing him was not result of that, but simply result of him not winning a dice roll on flee from bash. You had enough nukepower to probably limit number of those dice rolls to 1 or 2 at most. So it was simply the size/power of your group and randomness. Number of exits in room are also relevant for this, but I dont remember how many there were in this particular case.

Razoor said: CHARM(!!) on the other hand is definitely OP and in need of a little fix.
It is OP only in sense it makes the charmer able to hit on multiple players, which IMHO isn't bad. After all there are counters (candles, obsidian eyes, etc.), so any charmer who tries to trap with charmies risks a lot. It is surely powerful feature, but protect of pure warrior is also very powerful, as is bash, or even the sheer ob warriors can get compared to mages. You simply cannot compare these features without greater context.
Unlike charm, sleep has no counters for soloers, and that's the main issue here.

2019/04/03 21:19, Nero: 
We were actually waiting for it to drop and gave it as long as we dared but we didn't know how long we could wait before help arrives or something. I think someone did think to kill the bears in the area. I believe there were 2 exits.

2019/04/04 08:01, Cohen:   
You know there is always at least the second side of the coin. Some lowbies characters were narrating lately about cruel life and that it is impossible to exp and explore, that anytime they pass bree they are killed by troll or bn. And we all can prove it is of course wrong, that it is possible to quickly exp to legend around GH or around RD without beeing killed and some occasional dead is part of learning curve, but is this really true from perspective of really needed newcomers?
So the reason why some changes are not coming although there are on the table for ages could be that management is simply not convinced it will help for all.

2019/04/04 13:36, Nero: 
Cohen: this is the game. This has always been the game. Back when I started it wasnít when you went east of Bree it was if you went east if BWB. Norsuís 3 pack was always roaming between Bree and Fornost. It was what made the game exciting. If people want to just PvE and never risk any possible enemy attack that is simply not what this game is or ever was and I really hope management doesnít cater to such players more than they already have. I would love to have new players joining but Iím not willing to pay literally any cost to get them.

2019/04/04 15:31, Razoor: 
Not going to respond to the charm retort but just agree to disagree.

But I think what you said before is interesting, that solo pk is killing worse players with charmies. I agree this is often the case, but it's only problematic when you also have a char advantage. As BN or orc for example you literally cannot win against a player of equal skill if they play puke because the chars are better. Features like charm/sleep should allow people who are better players but have worse chars to beat equal players with better chars. That's when the game features offer interesting value. Currently, pukechars mostly slaughter equal/worse darkies using charm, which is what makes it bad for the game. Thus, solution is to nerf charm for pukes and not for darkies.

In my view, it would be great for the game if most good players played darkie only. That's how we get a more healthy PK environment, matching charpower with skill. It's simply too easy to play puke if you know what you're doing, and access to features like charm add to that problem.

2019/04/05 13:13, Elestir:  edited 3x   
Razoor said: As BN or orc for example you literally cannot win against a player of equal skill if they play puke because the chars are better.
This is not entirely true, as the BN being clearly an underdog can choose the battleground and use mobs there to his advantage (e.g. demon wolves, orc mobs, etc.), that is if the whitie wants to kill the BN. And you keep forgetting MUME never was a game of duels, so it is expected there will be trapping and overkilling involved to get the enemy killed (bn can cooperate with *trolls*, even summon them or portal them). That is all fine, as long as enemy has at least some chance to react. In case of sleep, it is an overkill scenario, where enemy has no such chance and that's wrong. Because then it is no longer game for the slept person, as he is just an observer.

Razoor said: Features like charm/sleep should allow people who are better players but have worse chars to beat equal players with better chars.
This could be translated into: Features like charm/sleep should make worse chars become better chars.

Razoor said: Thus, solution is to nerf charm for pukes and not for darkies.
If you nerf charm for pukes, all you will achieve is that the few pukes who pk solo (with charm) will probably just stop solo-pk completely. Then you will have even less ppl playing, and the only solo enemies you will meet will be stab'n'run scouts and store-sleepers. You fail to realize these pukes are outside because they can have their charmies with them. If you remove that from them, why should they bother? Just stop whining you cant solo kill them and trap or overkill them instead.

2019/04/05 16:12, Razoor: 
Your style of argument where you cherry-pick lines to respond to is not conducive to a good discussion. An argument is a confluence of factors, doesn't make sense to pick it apart instead of responding to the whole. It is also a way to ensure you steer the discussion onto segments you want to discuss, because it forces responses onto what you have selected as important, rather than engaging with the entire argument at once.

My main point (which was not responded to) is this: Currently, pukechars mostly slaughter equal/worse darkies using charm, which is what makes it bad for the game.

When I say nerf charm I am not saying remove charm, which is what you imply. Nerf charm could mean not being able to charm 2 mother eagles but 1. Or not charm huge stone trolls. Or not being able to target by name when ordering charmies to attack players. There are lots of ways to nerf charm while keeping it playable and useful.

2019/04/05 18:03, Uge:   
I would rather have them give bns max charm, and bring back the old gnarled orcs. As for the so called sleep wizkill problem, make sleeping people nobash.

2019/04/05 18:14, Nero: 
Why do people keep bringing up sleep no bash? Makes absolutely no sense within the context of the game as it exists. You could just make sleep last much less longer like 30 second, 1.5 minutes, whatever. That would be inline with how the game works, make it more like blind and fix the worst problems.

2019/04/05 21:36, Elestir:   
@Razoor I am not cherry-picking arguments as you say. But if I refute (or at least try to refute) some argument of yours, I am not obliged to respond to anything you concluded based on that (seemingly) refuted argument. Is that clear?

But if you want to be explicit, here goes: If pukes as you say mostly slaughter equal/worse darkies using charm, then the darkies are choosing wrong tactics to fight the charmer. Hence I wouldn't call those equal, but clearly worse, at least in tactics. If you face charm, you simply need to find a way to counter it (and there are ways), and not pretend it isn't there and then whine how pukes are overpowered. Those charmies often give the charmer false impression of safety, and that can be used against them. Nerf charm, and there goes this false impression and with it also your opportunity to take advantage of it.

And btw huge stone trolls are nocharm. You probably meant huge trolls or huge stone giants. First suffer from sundeath, and the giants have very poor mobility, so you can't pursue enemies with them. But in some scenarios, sure, they can be quite powerful asset. But in some other scenarios, they will make that charmer enter places where he will die, and where he would have never entered without them.

@Nero Mostly agree. 30 secs duration would make sleep similar to regular bash trap. Quick fix which wouldn't affect most regular usages of sleep would be reducing this duration to 30 secs only for targets with EFF vs MENTAL defense flag. (players wearing necklace/old chain/phial focus). Wonder if ppl would then kit their charmies with those necklaces/chains when possible to counter sleep vs charmies then... :-)

2019/04/05 23:14, Telessar:   
Agree with Uge's comment whole-heartedly. And actually as a BN even with less prac in charmie as a 'good player' you can kill multiple pukes that are 'average' so not sure what Razoor is talking about :X

And I agree with Uge and Elestir that sleep is awful as a solo player. I played a few weeks ago to see how pk was: logged zaug-thief, fought some mage with charmies and got slept. Retired. Logged puke-mage, fought pSvarten and pSaradauker and they tried to sleep me too. Retired. As someone who mostly solo pks it sure as hell deterred me.

2019/04/06 01:20, Uge:   
Bashing a sleeping person makes no sense from the description of bash in the help files. It would solve the sleep wizkill in open areas. It would make mvs regeneration while running from a warrior easier if you are nobash, but they still get a easy hit at the start, and the new pursue command made hunting a bit faster. I think itís a better option the nerfing a spell. Do you have a certain reason why making a sleeping person nobash is bad?
I would rather see a delayed effect sleep, perhaps where you moves drain until 0 and then sleep. Something like -15 mvs per sec and at 0 lights out. Making sleep last 30-90 sec would really hurt the solo players. Not sure what you are saying about it not affecting regular usage. I highly doubt that statement is true.

2019/04/06 06:23, Nero:edited 1x   
Not being able to bash a sleeping person would just be strange. It doesn't go with the 'feel' of the game for me at all. I don't mind your delayed effect idea though.

I don't see how making sleep last 30-90 seconds would hurt solo players? You mean smobbing? How long do you need exactly? Sleep is ridiculously long right now. Plus you could do something like say the forced sleep is enforced only 30 seconds but you have to manually wake up. Also Elestir's suggestion (which sounds good) is that sleep would only delay to e.g. 30 seconds if you had eff vs. sleep equipment. Otherwise it would presumably work the same as now.

2019/04/06 06:29, Elestir:   
Uge said: Do you have a certain reason why making a sleeping person nobash is bad?
Sleeping target should always be more vulnerable than standing and it would be kinda ridiculous if it was the other way around. You can't apply argument of realism here so easily, because if you wanted to be realistic, it would be quite easy to kill you with a single blow while you are sleeping.

Also there is the hold spell. So wizkills would still be possible through sleep + hold + nuke.

Uge said: Making sleep last 30-90 sec would really hurt the solo players.
How so? Remember we are talking about sleeping target with EFF vs MENTAL defenses (you can get this flag through wearing special equipment, which is relatively easily available to all 3 sides of war).

Uge said: Not sure what you are saying about it not affecting regular usage. I highly doubt that statement is true.
By regular usage I meant usage vs mobiles. Most (if not all) mobiles do not have the EFF vs MENTAL flag and thus the long duration of sleep would still apply to them.

2019/04/06 06:50, Uge:   
But sleeping targets are more vulnerable, lower pb and db. How often do you bash a sleeping person in pk unless they have been slept? Will making sleeping targets nobash have a negative affect to gameplay? Or would it improve gameplay by removing the sleep, bash+nuke wizkills in the open? I donít think sleep+hold is as effective as sleep bash. Unless they brought back the old hold spell and I didnít notice.

I didnít read you eff vs mental properly the first time. I actually really like that one.

2019/04/06 07:31, Razoor: 
My problem with charm is that every kill feels cheap. I really dislike using it in PK because it feels like overkill almost every time. I feel the same way playing puke in general, which is why I dont play it since many years, but if I play *puke with charm* just feels cheap to me. So I'd like to see it changed so that it's less overpowered. It's not a big deal to me and pretty far down on my list of desired changes, and I agree it can bring more PK if it stays this way, but to say it's not overpowered...I think you're not entirely honest with yourself then :)

And I'm not whining Elestir. I am having a dialogue about an aspect of the game, please learn to differentiate. All of us arent like we were 10 years ago.

2019/04/07 00:18, Elestir:  edited 2x   
@Uge Defense malus applies only for the very first hit, as then the target is not sleeping anymore. So landing a bash is much more effective. My point is, if you can bash a standing and fighting oponent by sending him sprawling, you can probably do something similar even with already sleeping target, just making sure he stays on ground for a bit? It's not like being already down should give him advantage, right?

How often do you bash sleeping target without being magically sleep? Not often today, as ppl wont risk it, but if they know they are nobash, they will be more willing to let enemies attack them while sleeping of course.

Impact of nobash on sleeping on gameplay would be ppl would start sleep-regenning much more, worrying less about possible danger of wizkill. It wouldn't be a disaster, but it really wouldn't be logical. Problem is when you keep adding illogical features, you may eventually end up with unforseen and ridiculous synergies and then they may be hard to solve.

Hold spell I believe can give as long delay as bash even today, but in past it provided even longer delay, which is why it was nerfed as having too much of wizkill potential. I remember e.g. Snuttan employing tactics of sending solo warrior to bash a target, then call the shaman with group in order to cast hold and then finally harm/bolt the shit out of him. So bash was amplified by hold basically then. Nowadays I guess it doesn't amplify it anymore usually, so you can skip hold, as it is just fancier bash that costs tons of pracs and mana.

@Razoor Define what is cheap. Is using quick dispel on high level cleric legend cheap? Is sanctuary+quake cheap? Is sanctuary itself cheap? Is usage of scrolls and rocks cheap? Is killing some1 using poisons cheap? Is any kind of overkill cheap? Is taking advantage of someone being low from mobs cheap? I bet you will find positively answering player for each of those questions. What kind of PK you do not see as cheap?

And when I was talking about whining, I was not talking specifically about you, but generally about example of players fighting against charm without a working plan.

2019/04/07 02:27, Rashnak: 
I think that it makes perfect sense to prevent bashing on opponents that are sleeping. It's like they are already bashed, and such opponents can currently also not be rebashed until they recover. If we allow bashing of sleeping opponents, why not rebashing of bashed opponents?

@Elestir: 'ppl would start sleep-regenning much more, worrying less about possible danger of wizkill'

Perhaps less, but dangers would still be there. Backstab being one. Overall I would welcome this change. Both as someone sleep-regening, and someone meeting such sleepers.

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